並前往https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/%E6%A5%B5%E7%B0%A1%E5%AF%A6%E7%BF%92%E7%94%9F/ep77%E5%B1%B1%E4%B8%8B%E8%8B%B1%E5%AD%90%E6%96%B7%E6%8D%A8%E9%9B%A2751%E6%94%B6%E7%B4%8D%E5%AF%86%E7%A2%BC%E6%A5%B5%E7%B0%A1%E7%94%9F%E6%B4%BBminimali-7fWdN8SXY1J/